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| Truck Reviews (15215 Posts)
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If ain't your idea...it can't be good
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On 8/26/2005 Jack
wrote in from
United States
(207.114.nnn.nnn)
Yes, Chris, all of the people who have ridden the truck have used exactly the same set-up...meaning wheels, decks, risers and bearings,(that's me being a smart-ass). All of our set-ups are completely different.
Give me a break.
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Where Is The Hate?
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On 8/26/2005
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
I don't see where anyone is saying that it doesn't work. I don't know, because I haven't tried it. And if I did try it, I'd have to consider that I'd be comparing apples and oranges. Orange wheels instead of green, Pocket Pistols instead of a Roe, bearings, wheelbases, cushions, hanger widths, riser pads, griptape, board shape, board contour, the time of day, the tempature of the traction and how much energy I've expended through testing, etc, etc, etc.
What I have said it is that it may work, but not for the reasons that it was originally designed. More specifically, adding weight to the outside wheels reduces the weight on the inside wheels. Reducing the weight on the inside wheels lessens the effective steering. Lessening the effective steering on a rear truck can decrease oversteering the rear-steer, which could in turn, help with traction.
This isn't a slam. And it isn't a declaration of what IS happening. I've happened onto a lot of "happy accidents" in my designs over the years, and I continue to evolve some ideas, and nix others. What's important to me is that I'm able to LEARN and IMPROVE designs. If I come to a false conclusion about what makes something better (or worse), I'm likely to change the wrong things in future designs. It takes a TON of patience to attempt anything near true "scientific" testing. You have to change only ONE thing and see how it compares to the other "unchanged" item. I'd be real interested in having a rider do a series of BLIND test runs on Paul's board, some with the swingarms locked down tight, and others with the swingarms allowed to swing independently.
Right now, the WHOLE SYSTEM may be contributing to the success of the truck, and/or the dollar bill test. This also, is not a slam. It's merely a possibility. One that may have been explored, or not. We don't know. We're sitting around on the other side of cyberspace trying to figure out why it would work, or "shouldn't".
I applaud anyone who has ventured into bringing a design out of the mind and the computer, and into a complete board that you can ride down a hill. I've seen a lot of smart guys do some pretty dumb things, and some single-digit IQ dudes come up with some pretty bright ideas.
BTW, I'm not sure if anyone else noticed this, but doesn't one of Jack's pictures and Geezer's drawings (modified by me) look a little similar?
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Traction Lab
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On 8/26/2005
Chuck Gill
wrote in from
United States
(192.249.nnn.nnn)
Jack, billbee, et al -
Nice looking design! One thing I have observed here is, the more nay-sayers, parade-rainers, and pi$$ed-off comments you can generate here, the closer you probably are to the truth (eg - how much nonsense did McCree catch here in the last few years? and now how many people are riding - and winning - on his trucks?). I look forward to seeing how your efforts play out.
What is your plan - to offer all-new components, or to offer modifications to folks' existing Radikal Hardware?
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Traction Lab
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On 8/26/2005
Rob
wrote in from
Canada
(67.68.nnn.nnn)
Jack
Congratulations - you have built something that is both beautiful and functional (from the reports). Please keep on innovating - what you, Chicken, McCree, Gesmer, Geezer-X and all others are producing are incredible.
I don't know why we want to criticize and wish failure on these innovations - we should be proud that these individuals want to spend the time and effort to create equipment that improves this very small minority sport.
I hate to use a bad cliche - "but can't we all be friends"
I am just a guy that loves racing and riding skateboards - thanks to all that make the gear that I get to enjoy
Just my 2 cents
Rob
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Traction Lab Comment
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On 8/26/2005 billbee
wrote in from
United States
(66.214.nnn.nnn)
I have been amused by much of attention our resident "engineers" have given out efforts. Much of the criticism seems to be biased to wards preconceived ideas on the mechanics of how things work. Preconception in the design/creative process inhibits innovation and limits the realm of possibilities available to the solution of the problem at hand. There is no doubt you guys are smart. How about a couple of comments that would lend to the evolution of this "experiment". The "that'll never work" criticism is best left in the schoolyard where the kids play. I am offering a test ride of my personal setup to anyone who cares on the Turri Rd. Super G hill in Morro Bay. On behalf of the staff at Traction Lab we encourage commentary that will serve to help us satisfy our goal of keeping "rubber to the pavement", not skin.
Further notes: In Jack's photos is AP's version. Threaded baseplate mounting screws? WTF? That's a new one, we don't need to go there. All versions are interchangeable with a Radikal baseplate. Our baseplate uses a fixed Grade8 bolt as a kingpin. Bushing changes are possible by removable pivot spud. Torsion rate is variable by reducing hex rod diameter from the 3/16"std.
It Works!
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Traction Lab
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On 8/26/2005
SeanD
wrote in from
United States
(12.203.nnn.nnn)
Enuff talk - where/when can we get them and try 'em 4 ourselves????
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traction lab(or) of love
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On 8/26/2005 DAve G
wrote in from
United States
(207.69.nnn.nnn)
Welp..up at 5:00 makin breakfast for my girls on their first day back to school (if the biscuits burn..it's your fault Jack)
That truck is a work of art! If you say it works and J.D says it works...IT WORKS!
2 things tho..
What is up with the hardware? It looks loosened.
And is the Hanger actually hitting the "swing arm" in the pics?
It's nice to have a pic of the actual action of the outer axle springing down !!
Keep up the R&D
Enjoy,
Dave G
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Traction Lab
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On 8/25/2005
Jack Smith
wrote in from
United States
(66.82.nnn.nnn)
Do you people not want innovation?
Why are you so interested in trying to prove the truck doesn't work?
Do you think we would spend a fair amount of time and money trying to develop something that doesn't work?
Paul Dunn, one of the greatest slalom racers ever, has tested and competed on the truck, he says it works. I've been racing since 1975, I also say the truck works. I've seen Adrian Pina do some amazing turns while riding this truck. Bill Boothby and Buzz, two of the smartest guys I know, are involved in the development of this project, they say it works.
John Hutson, when shown the truck at Hood River, said straight out, "You guys got it".
Yes, Herbn, it can steer further. Yes, Herbn at some point the outside wheel will lose contact with the ground. Lean that much on a coventional truck and you will see daylight between the wheel and the ground.
I'll give it a day until someone posts a picture/drawing of a conventional truck leaned way over with the outside wheel still in contact. What the photo/drawing won't show is how loose the kingpin nut is.
All we have done is try something different, we never said that this truck was the best thing since sliced bread. We just wanted to share what we were doing.
Sometimes, I just don't get you guys.
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Hardware
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On 8/25/2005 AP
wrote in from
United States
(24.176.nnn.nnn)
Base Plate is Tapped, its a precision tool.
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hardware
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On 8/25/2005 herbn
wrote in from
United States
(64.12.nnn.nnn)
what's with the mounting hardware on those traction lab trucks? also, is that as far as they steer? it looks like they could go a little bit further over, think they might lift a wheel at that point,so the pic might not make the point.
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We Care
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On 8/25/2005
AP
wrote in from
United States
(24.176.nnn.nnn)
Oh, we Really care how it works as well, and guess what, it does. Its okay to be wrong.
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Bend your knees...$5 please
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Jack well post the movie next
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On 8/25/2005
AP
wrote in from
United States
(207.114.nnn.nnn)
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If Tricky Dick likes 'em...
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On 8/25/2005 Haldeman
wrote in from
United States
(63.206.nnn.nnn)
One thing about racing on prototype trucks: if they don't work well, competitive racers won't continue to use them. I don't know whether the TractionLab design can be produced at a price near or below the stratospherically-priced Radikals, but that can wait for later: if they work well under the feet of accomplished racers, that might signify those boys are onto something.
Just stay off the downhill courses: if you win there with something new, it will be illegal by the time the race is over.
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Wise-Guy's Addendum
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On 8/24/2005 Same Guy as before
wrote in from
United States
(64.5.nnn.nnn)
One more thing, Boothby also had me stand on some decks with "non-indepentant suspended axles" kind of rear trucks of different sorts and do the static "dollar bill under the outside-of-the-turn wheel" test, and indeed, the dollar bill was removable with a lot less force. Again, I still had to settle for the "static" test and was not priveledged to a "dynamic" version of the test with these other rear traction trucks for the same reasons of Boothby's limitations of non ability to run in a crouched position and put dollar bills under the back wheels and pull on them simultaneouly. No discredit to Bill Boothby in that last statement, I just want to make that perfectly clear. -Richard Milhous Nixon.
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Eye Witness to the Mystery Slalom Rear Suspension Truck
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On 8/24/2005 Paul Howard
wrote in from
United States
(64.5.nnn.nnn)
As a contestant at Hood River, and having seen Dunn (for sure) and Jack Smith (I think) using the Radikal-derived,independantly suspended rear truck in question(though NOT a Trendependant), it seemed fast and grippy for Dunn with those danged normally sorta slippy Avilas. Boothby had me stand on it and showed me the "dollar bill under the wheel" test, and indeed, the "outside of the turn" wheel did have enough force on the ground to stick that dollar bill solidly in place. Yes, That was STANDING STILL rather than riding, but Boothby could'nt run fast enough in a crouched position to keep putting dollar bills under the rear outside wheel and keep pulling on them simultaneously whilst I was riding the board for a "dynamic" demonstration so I had to make due with the "static" demo. OK, I'll stop being a smart-ass momentarily but I hope you all enjoyed reading and envisioning it as much as I did writing it. This test-truck did seem to work. Adios-Paul
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Seismic 8mm upgrades
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On 8/24/2005 Adam
wrote in from
United States
(198.144.nnn.nnn)
Quiet, you say? Just like my original German Seismics with hollow 8mm axles.
Mmmm.. 8mm.
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Seismic 8mm upgrades
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On 8/24/2005 3three
wrote in from
United States
(69.227.nnn.nnn)
I recently put together a setup with the seismic 8mm x 130mm width on a Landyachtz allstar, with biltins and grippins.
I can't get over how QUIET the ride is. No more rattling bearings, and turning response is instant and precise.
Dan, you seem to show a constant desire to improve on an already great idea.
Thanks for making these available!
Geezer, you rock for putting your time and expertise into the mix!
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Traction Lab
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On 8/24/2005 GN
wrote in from
United States
(67.189.nnn.nnn)
It might be possible to get pictures or video
during a turn (near the limits of traction)
and from the position of the arms you could
get some idea where the weight is, inside vs
outside wheels.
I did try a small drop deck and it had poor
traction. I think it was because of the low deck,
almost all of the weight was on the inside wheels
and then when the board slid out you would put
even more weight to the inside wheels and slide
more. Positive feedback?
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Off Kilter
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On 8/23/2005
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
I think that all of y'all are a bit off base here. Geezer said that skateboard wheels "are not especially deformable". I disagree. If we didn't want our wheels to deform we'd be hanging up our Grippins, Avalons and Manx and going back to Stingers, La Costas, and large hubbed wheels or wheels without flexible lips. The wheels with the traction are the ones that deform by design.
Mark says that "the hanger stays parallel to the surface when the board turns". In theory this seems right, but in reality, lean steer vehicles have axles that lean to a certain degree in a turn. Even while going straight, the hanger may be parallel but the axles bend slightly. They bend more in a turn where the load is greater.
Perhaps Geezer's picture could have looked like the following, where the hanger/axle is parallel but the contact with the ground is only on one wheel.
We all know that the rider isn't going to ride on the outside wheels, so when the system tilts back to the inside wheels, there will be a tendency for it to look like Geezer's first picture. If most all of the weight is on the inside wheels, the hanger/axle will tilt and the outside wheel will ride on its inside edge, as in the picture below.
This happens with normal trucks too. Hangers and axles bend and tilt, and the outside wheels don't get to contact the ground as much. It's hard to say exactly what the effect of an independent suspension system has on traction. It could help. Not by putting more wheel on the ground, but by descreasing the amount of weight on the inside wheels, which could straighten out the rear-steer effect and make for a better line. Sometimes people don't care how it works, only that it works. I care about both.
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Geeze-cad
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On 8/23/2005
MARK MCCREE
wrote in from
United States
(69.69.nnn.nnn)
The cute solids pic that tries to say the contact patch is thrown off to one side of the wheel is incorrect. In my opinion.
Consider the fact that the hanger stays parallel to the surface when a board turns. Geeeeezes picture shows the "virtual" hanger at a different angle than the contact surface. That can't happen. The contact patch stays uniform ----suspension or not.
I'm not going to argue it either way. Just an observation.
I haven't anything to say either way about this suspension issue. Experimenting is a great thing. Good luck guys.
In some courses the suspension design would prove beneficial. I have heard comments about the action retarding a hard rear pump action though. It's hard to say. With so many racers using dead rear steer setups(TTC), and liking it, more action might not be what's needed. Who knows.
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Traction Lab
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On 8/22/2005
Jackie Economaki - AKA Jack Smith
wrote in from
United States
(172.191.nnn.nnn)
Boy, a guy goes away for a couple of days...
Guys, you can discuss the Traction Lab truck to death, post fancy drawings, etc.. I'll tell you this, it works.
The TL truck came about because I kept looking at my Radikal rear truck and thinking there has to be a way to add suspension to it. I took it to my my friend Buzz, who has decades of experience in building race cars and asked him what he thought. He asked me a few questions and asked if I could leave the truck with him. Two days later he called me and said to come pick up the prototype. We are now up to version 4. The following people have been involved in design and testing:
Jack Smith
Bill Boothby
Buzz
Adrian Pina
Paul Dunn
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Speaking of weighted...
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On 8/22/2005
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
BTW, here's how the sidecar camerabike project is coming along. I just mounted the special leading-link front forks that I got custom made in England. I've changed the sidecar tire one with a lower CG. I swapped out the wimpy sidecar suspension in favor of a heavy duty suspension and bigger axle. I have a steering dampener that is not yet installed. Then I'll start reinforcing and extending the sidecar chassis to make a nice strong platform for the cameraman and/or monkey. I'll make a nice box fender and add some speedrail around the perimeter so that I don't lose my balast (and camera) in a turn.
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GN and G7enn
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On 8/22/2005
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
GN, Your opening statement is "Sideloads put weight on the outside wheels". What you may be trying to say is that for cars and many other vehicles that are steering into a turn without leaning, the forces put the weight on the outside wheels. And I would agree with you. But as stated, I completely reject that premise. I have a motorcycle. When I want to turn left, I lean to the left. The right side of my tires don't contact the ground, the left sides do. And if I want to avoid high-siding at any speed, I continue to lean to the left to OVERCOME the forces that want the right side of my bike on the ground. I don't care if it's a high bike, a low bike, a chopper, or what my forks are like, if I put weight on the right sides of my tires in a left turn, I'm hosed.
I've recently put a sidecar on my motorcycle. THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING! The bike is no longer a lean-steer vehicle. It is now impossible to lean the bike to the left in a left turn. I can lean, but the bike doesn't want to come with me. It wants to high-side, but the sidecar won't let it (like training wheels). Now the outide of the wheels have more weight on them. This is even more obvious in right hand turns, where the sidecar can (and will) come off the ground if not counterbalanced enough. But this only happens when the bike is not lean-steer.
There is no question that a turn would tend to weight the outside wheels of a "normal" vehicle, but a skateboard is a very different beast, just a motorcycles with and without sidecars are entirely different beasts.
So rather than put up a bunch of fancy vector based diagrams, ask yourself this. When will a (skateboard) truck steer to the left, when there is more weight on the right wheels? When can I turn a motorcycle to the left, without leaning it to the left? The answer is, when it's not a skateboard, and it's not a motorcycle.
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Weight
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On 8/22/2005
G7enn
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(80.229.nnn.nnn)
This was debated a couple of years ago and the general feeling was that there was always more pressure on the inside wheels. At the time I argued that a truck with a higher roll centre* could transmit more force to the outside wheel. This was dismissed as being insignificant and indeed is at a standstill where it is indeed all about the bushings and the inside wheel.
I continued to argue that it could be significant at high enough g forces with a high enough roll centre (imagine a truck with very extended hangers below the bushings/kingpin**) but this was dismissed as 'still insignificant'.
Sorry but this is all hard to explain without diagrams. At the time I drew an exagerated truck with a six inch extension between the pivot/bushings and the axles to illustrate the point that the weight of the board could be focused at a point, at least slightly nearer the outer wheel. Chris wasn't convinced...
* A low roll centre being Randal, TTCs and other offsets that bring the axle in line with the kingpin and placing the roll centre on the axle.
A higher roll centre being above the axle on classic trucks like an Indy or tracker, with a Trailing Arm rear radical possibly being the highest.
** extending the axle out from the hanger, 'trailing arm' style has the same effect of raising the roll centre.
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