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| Truck Reviews (15215 Posts)
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sputnik
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On 9/9/2005 bara
wrote in from
United States
(204.78.nnn.nnn)
then watcha waitin' for man???........there's a big hole in the US market between conventional trucks and Rads/PVDs....Splitfires fill some of that need but variety is a good thing....
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Sputnik
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On 9/9/2005
Geezer-X
wrote in from
United States
(151.200.nnn.nnn)
It's like a TTC, except with the centerlines of the axles machined correctly. I've done about 50 TTCs and they're all drilled 1mm off.
It's like an Airflow except it'll be made in the US, readily available, and like a Splitfire also except...
It'll cost WAY less.
And, there will be a matching front truck.
I'm trying for under $150/pair.
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Geezer's Render
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On 9/9/2005
Chris P
wrote in from
United States
(24.10.nnn.nnn)
Bara, the pivot isn't bent, it's a pin-through truck. Likely the same characteristics as the DS-series Splitfires.
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Geezer tru-x
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On 9/9/2005
Bara
wrote in from
United States
(204.78.nnn.nnn)
Hey Geez.....nice looking design, but how is it any different than the TTC, Airflow or original splitfire?
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a truck ?
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On 9/9/2005
panda
wrote in from
France
(82.225.nnn.nnn)
so geezer, what is this new truck you have rendered there ? would this be chaput's liquid truck.
oh by the way what geometry, axle width will the liquid truck feature and will we see the spherical bushing in there too (not a fan myself, owning a pair of jimz's and maguns i much prefer the maguns)
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geezer renderings
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On 9/9/2005 herbn
wrote in from
United States
(205.188.nnn.nnn)
i wish i could do that stuff,but i did however,actually build that geometry/ axle/ bushing relationship ,from day one,with essentially handrawn drawings. The first ones were hangers for randal 50 degree bases, then with my own 45 degree bases and i have a set of untested 40 degree prototypes, they're all prototypes the design is totally valid,just build them, you'll love em.
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TL
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On 9/8/2005
Jack
wrote in from
United States
(66.82.nnn.nnn)
I just want to make something perfectly clear here about the Traction Lab truck.
It is not my truck, it's not Bill's truck, it is not Adrian's truck, it is not Paul's truck, nor is is Keli's truck.
It is Buzz's Truck.
The brains behind the truck is Buzz Morasca. As I mentioned earlier I took a Radikal to Buzz and asked him if he could put suspension on it. Everything from that moment forward has come out of Buzz's head, computer and CNC machine.
Myself, Bill, Adrian, Paul and Keli are the lucky recipients and test pilots of Buzz's hard work.
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Traction Lab
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On 9/8/2005
Brady
wrote in from
United States
(65.10.nnn.nnn)
A couple of thoughts I have that may be meaningless...
Presprung torsion...
Early on I bought a Turner needlenose and set it up with the first run chinese seismic trucks. Board was med flex to my weight at the time (155#). That damn board bucked me off too many times I got rid of it. It may have been the flex of the board, the spring back of the trucks while unweighted and holding a turn, or a combination of both.
Is it possible that the TL truck might flex back when not wanted in a technicak manuever, when it is not wanted to do so?
Fixed axle...
I`ve seen pics of downhillers where they are basically riding on 2 wheels in a turn. Is this a desired effect? It seems that they are putting maximum pressure on the inside wheels for traction. If both wheels where in contact at this point, wouldn`t the board slide out?
Or it could be that in the case of slalom racing, these effects are desirable?
I don`t see why CC`s questioning the validity of these trucks and how the woek is negative. If his questions are answered, then the better for sales of the TL truck.
Good luck Jack and I hope it works out.
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A truck
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On 9/8/2005
Geezer-X
wrote in from
United States
(151.200.nnn.nnn)
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BUSHINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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On 9/8/2005 Pauliwog
wrote in from
United States
(64.5.nnn.nnn)
OK, let's just all put arguing over Jack and Boothby's truck behind us and move on and just focus our collective energy like a magnifying glass in the sun to light a fire under Chaput's butt to start making those replacements for Tracker Stims(a moment of silence please). Now that would be one sa-weet product! (as would the Traction Lab truck). That's all I have to say, for now that is, unless of course I think of something else to say at some later point in time, at which time I will of course post it right here. OK, I guess that's it for now. -Paul
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Over the hills and through the rainbow
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On 9/8/2005
Keli Benko
wrote in from
United States
(64.166.nnn.nnn)
Don't worry Chris, you didn't make me feel bad. I wouldn't give you the pleasure of knowing you made me feel bad. It takes alot more than that to do anything to me. I thought this was over, I totally forgot about it and then I come on here and people are still talking about it, amazing. You know how when your trucks are too tight and you try to turn so hard that half the wheel comes off the ground? That's what this doesn't do, no matter how hard you turn it, the wheels remain on the ground, creating better traction. i think. i'm not old yet so i couldn't possibly know nearly as much as fantastic chris but thats just my personal experience actually riding the truck. I liked it, enough for me. if it didn't make you happy, well, satisfying you wasn't my objective. It's funny being a kid on this site and being one of the only ones who post's their actual name and email. If you have something bad to say about me, at least let me know who you are. So please, feel free to email me if you still can't let this little issue go. I'm kinda over being called lindsay lohan, stupid girl, overdramatic teen. Because if you knew me, wow, you'd use some different words. Oh, and i just wanted to thank Billy, Jack, Adrian, and Paul for making this truck, it's an awesome innovation and as soon as they come on sale, i'll buy on. fo sho. i'm out.
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TL
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On 9/8/2005
Jack
wrote in from
United States
(66.82.nnn.nnn)
Chris, I have nothing but respect for your skating and design abilities.
I am neither a victim or a hysterical person.
We are still in the process of testing the trucks ourselves. If you will carefully read one of my recent posts you will see that we have swapped out the rear trucks on our test boards, everything else stayed the same. Times improved. As I said earlier, maybe it's all in our heads. Maybe we were going faster because "we thought we had more traction". Maybe not.
Your idea about locking the swing arms down and testing the truck that way is valid. I'm sure we'll try it.
In the meantime, anyone who comes to the worlds is welcome to try the truck.
Chris, please keep in mind that this all started as a fun experiment for me, I just wanted to see if suspension could be added to a Radikal truck. I have no idea if production models of this truck will ever see the light of day.
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New Trucks
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On 9/8/2005 EBasil
wrote in from
United States
(207.200.nnn.nnn)
Man, I don't know how responsible it is to make blind guys test skateboard trucks. I bet there'd be some good money in the videos of it, though!
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New Trucks
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On 9/8/2005
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
Prototypes this year, but production versions? There are way too many variables to throw a date out. I hate not meeting my announcement dates on new products, so I'm going to wait until I'm sure that I can deliver...
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Question for Chaput
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On 9/8/2005 schralpsie
wrote in from
United States
(163.176.nnn.nnn)
When are the LIQUID trucks going to debut?
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Testng Trucks
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On 9/8/2005
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
Jack, please, this victim role is getting really old. Keli said that she used an entirely different board, one that had a longer wheelbase, and that she shaved 3 seconds off of her time. Among the numerous differences in setups, that board had the Traction Lab truck on it. She claimed that this "proved" that the truck worked. Intelligent adults questioned the methodology of proof, as did I. You are now suggesting that people just want to make a teenage girl feel bad, as if that has ever been anyone's motive. Now YOU sound hysterical, in the Marcia Clark sense of the term. Junior High alliances aren't going persuade anyone into thinking more or less of the truck's performance. Only real testing can do that.
If you really want to put any of this to rest, you would allow people to do BLIND A/B testing on a setup while changing only one thing - the independent swinging of the arms. My guess is, that you could simply and easily take a SINGLE setup that uses the Traction Lab in the rear, in its fully functional state, and then change ONLY it so that the arms can't swing independently. Lock'em down. Allow riders to ride the board WITHOUT letting them know what state the rear truck is in. They should be given the board in RANDOM, not alternating states. They should be required to give feedback after every run, commiting to answers such as More Traction, Less Traction, No Difference. If the system makes any noises or gives any tell-tale signs other than the performance, you may have to use earplugs or mask the differences. People who are predisposed to liking (or not liking) a product cannot give impartial feedback, no matter how objective they'd like to think themselves.
Without anything resembling true scintific testing, this discussion will never get beyond a "he said, she said" type of claim. If you've got something to prove, prove it.
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Traction Lab
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On 9/8/2005 EBasil
wrote in from
United States
(63.206.nnn.nnn)
Jack, thanks for your response.
I think I understand how you're preloading/setting tension on the swingarms: by rotating the hex bar for more torsion preload, right? Rotate the hex, cinch back down the set screws and done?
What I'm really asking about is "where the hot setup seems to be" in terms of whether you're setting up the trucks to ride at the top of their "travel" when you're static, or whether you're resting in the middle, or down near the stops. How "soft" or firm is the torsion bar suspension? How easy is it to move the swingarm-ed wheels by hand?
Buzz's comment regarding "negative suspension" ("droop") got me thinking that I may have been looking at your photos all wrong, in terms of figuring out why the bitchen-lookin' trucks are working so well.
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Traction Lab
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On 9/8/2005
Jack "Hysterical" Smith
wrote in from
United States
(66.82.nnn.nnn)
First off EBasil...myself, Bill and Adrian are not, nor have we been hysterical while posting about the TL trucks.
Keli Benko, all of 15 years old originally posted that she improved her time through a course when she used the truck. And certain people (grown-ups) on here just couldn't let her feel good about it. I think she handled the situation quite well.
To answer your question:
You can adjust the amount of "float", we call it preload by loosening two set screws and dialing in the amount of preload you want. In the future you will be able change "torsion bars" as well.
One more thing, Traction Lab is just the code name for the truck.
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Geezer and Buzz postings
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On 9/8/2005 EBasil
wrote in from
United States
(63.206.nnn.nnn)
Great postings, both of you. Articulate to the points you want to make and without the wild recriminations that this subject had devolved into at points.
Earlier, I'd posted a question about those old Indy "suspension trucks" and I think Buzz answered that fully with his candid description. You won't hear from me the "so it's just a copy" baloney that so many skaters are fond of barfing whenever a new product comes out: if you can build a better mousetrap, more power to you! It's certainly pretty amazing what Solidworks and a good machinist's eye can produce in an evening!
Geezer's comments about the secondary torsion device concept, and Buzz's reply in regard to "negative suspension" raised a question in my mind for Buzz or anyone with a set of the TractionLabs that can react without hysterics: how "sprung" does the hex-key torsion bar make the truck when you're standing on them? Do the trucks settle down onto those swingarm stops you've got on there, or do they float at the "top" or "middle" of the "travel"?
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Question(s) for Geezer-X
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On 9/8/2005
Mile High Mark
wrote in from
United States
(69.15.nnn.nnn)
Are you still modifying/tuning trucks? I have several trucks that need 8mm axle upgrades and hanger facing.
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trailing arms
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On 9/8/2005 Buzz
wrote in from
United States
(66.122.nnn.nnn)
Gezzer-X wrote:
"If that's the thing that one is trying to counter with a trailing arm truck, then you're effectively trying to dissipate some of the torsional force generated by leaning (again, not while the board is rolling)by deflecting a torsion spring incorporated in the truck..."
What about the negative suspension travel that is actually using the initial 'sag' in the suspension that pushes the outside wheel downward? I would guess that at some point the load per contact patch area of a MIS-ALIGNED wheel MIGHT offer enough increased slip that it COULD equal or exceed a perfectly ALIGNED wheel...??
Who knows...Who cares?? Not me :-)
Here's the deal. Jack was over at the t-shirt shop, He asked The t-shirt guy if the guy in the machine shop was there, Greg said, " oh..you need to go talk to Buzz about that...." Jack walked in with the Independent coffee table book and an idea. I read the book... listened to Jack. I went home that night and using the Radikal truck that Jack had left with me as a template fiddled some stuff up in SolidWorks. I puzzled over the spring configuration until I used my magnifying glass to read the handwritten message in one of the pictures in the book that mentioned the 3/16 hex key as the better spring. That's where I started. I have an old beater CNC mill that I can run pretty good..I had a little time...Sunday afternoon I had a part.
Jack, Bill, Paul and Adrian seem like good guys. They are passionate about your sport which I appreciate. I used to ride Slalom back in the early 70's. Surfed with Rich Novak at Moss Landing all thru the early days. The last time I took my 1970 Buzztech slalom board out I pulled my achilles tendon so bad I limped for a week!
have fun at your race next weekend!
Best
Buzz
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Flubbers
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On 9/8/2005
Derik
wrote in from
Germany
(193.7.nnn.nnn)
I like to have the recipe. Or at least: where do I get them?
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But the point is...
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On 9/8/2005
Geezer-X
wrote in from
United States
(151.200.nnn.nnn)
That ANY articulated axle truck using swinging arms cannot hold a parallel relationship between the pair of wheels mounted on the truck while the arms are moving relative to one another.
I understand what proponents of the swing axle idea are trying to do, but the most basic fundamental concepts that drive suspension design for ANY type of vehicle are not applicable to a skateboard. The main issues are unsprung weight, damping, and controlling contact patch.
Cars, motorcycles, ATVs, all have, to varying degrees, fairly soft compliant tires, and articulated suspensions which weigh a reasonable percentage of the total vehicle weight. Suspension is necessary to hold the contact patches of the tires in intimate contact with the road surface despite the irregular motion of the vehicle as it accelerates, decellerates, turns, and stops. The unsprung weight is fuzzily defined, but in essence comprises everything which stays in contact with the ground and is not part of the weight which is borne by the springs. On a car this would be the tires, rims, hubs, brake rotors, calipers, and about half the weight of each brake line, control arm, spring, and damper. A live rear axle car would include the weight of the whole differential, the 5th member, and about half the weight of any trailing arms, leaf springs, locating links, etc...
On a car the unsprung weight can be 20% of the total vehicle weight. Motorcycles have less, what with fewer wheels and all.
A conventional skateboard, however is all unsprung weight. For example, I'll use myself. Rider weight with pads and sweaty clothes, 215#. Vehicle weight 5 pounds. about 2%. Loaded with my weight, and on the reasonably smooth surfaces used for slalom, there's no problem at all keeping all 4 contact patches in intimate contact with the surface. Rider skill is necessary to keep the rear truck weighted, but that's about it.
Compliance? a big soft car tire deforms and the unsprung weight tries to keep it going up off a bump when the road is going down. A 68mm skateboard wheel loaded with 50# only deflects about 1/16" maximum, and 50# of pressure on each wheel, which we'll say has an unsprung weight of about 1.5#, is WAY more than enough to keep said wheel in contact.
Is the issue that someone has decided by leaning on a parked skateboard that the outside wheels are loaded more lightly than the inside wheels? if you used really hard bushings that the outside wheels will lift clean off the ground?
If that's the thing that one is trying to counter with a trailing arm truck, then you're effectively trying to dissipate some of the torsional force generated by leaning (again, not while the board is rolling)by deflecting a torsion spring incorporated in the truck.
NOW...
Here is the problem, and the only problem.
When the trailing arms rotate about the axis of the hanger relative to one another, the contact patches of the 2 wheels are no longer aligned concentric to one another.
I'm aware that modern slalom wheels have flexible lips, and centerset wheels like Grippens will deform equally inside or outside, but having gotten feedback from literally hundreds of skaters regarding rear truck grip, predictability of grip, percentage of rear steer, and simply how their times improve when they stop using bent axles and start using straight, stiff axles, the fact is that modern slalom wheels develop the greatest usable traction when they are held in as close to a concentric relationship as possible.
I'm not making this up because I love to sell axles. This is factual and has been borne out by years of empiracal research, my own as well as many others.
There are many factors which can be subtly massaged to make conventional skateboard trucks turn more crisply and with greater accuracy, return to center better, and generate better and more predictable grip, and none of them involve allowing the wheels to be misaligned.
It's possible that if you bent both sides of a rear truck's axle very precisely so it had say, 2* of negative camber (tops of the wheels canted in toward the centerline of the vehicle) that you might have greater initial grip, but at the expense of PREDICTABILITY OF GRIP.
A PVD rear truck offers crazy, insane traction. It's totally straight and stiff, and has a nearly frictionless mechanical link to the deck so the feedback is excellent. I'm a mediocre skater at best, but even I, on a good day, can feel traction smoothly break loose, and I have time to weight it and control it. This is wholly a result of the uniformity of the distribution of weight across the contact patches.
And finally, the loading of the inside wheel vs. outside wheel issue is beest addressed by considering the concept of the friction circle, and looking at a skateboard as a bicycle or motorcycle which happens to have it's front and rear contact patches divided down the middle. When you look at where the load vectors in a turn, it all makes sense.
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Flubbers
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On 9/8/2005
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
From bottom to top: Randal, Radikal, Stimulators, JimZ's, Big Green Mounds of stored energy formed to any shape or size that you want. I'm trying out 75a, 78a, 81a, 84a, 88a, 92a, etc. I used big soft gummy ones in my speedboard setup in Montreal.
No wheels were harmed in the making of this product. Green Piece and Save The Wheels Foundation approved.
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Holey Truck!
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On 9/8/2005 EBasil
wrote in from
United States
(172.193.nnn.nnn)
I've ridden the Holey trucks, Derik. You'll like them, if you like Randals, because they're essentially a Randal truck that's been made straighter, lighter and more accurately. Plus they're nice-looking.
The holes are accurately punched for the kingpin and mounting hardware. The hanger is symmetrical, however, so there's no effect to "flipping" the hanger as you might do with a Randal.
I think Lush is switching over because they know the manufacturer, the trucks cost them less than Randals do and the trucks work great.
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